Jones: After that, I imagine that the relationship between the USRDA and the cheminots deteriorated.

Diombana: Sure. The USRDA was no longer our friend. That was finished. The cheminots became the first to "défiler" (to desert the government). That's why I wrote an article in La Roue n°28 about rehabilitating Moussa Traoré (Interjection by Diallo "Modibo Keita." The article was about Moussa Traoré, but he referred to these events to explain why Modibo Keita could not be rehabilitated either.) He threatened the population. He killed Fily Dabo and his companions. He destroyed the village of Sakoïba near Segou.

Jones: Sakoïba?

Diombana: Sakoïba. There was a commissaire who mistreated the population with respect ot taxes, so they seized him and beat him nearly to death.

Jones: Modibo was angry?

Diombana: Modibo was angry, so he brought in Caterpillars (bulldozers) and leveled the village. (Interruption while someone entered the office on business) So you see, that's what happened.

Jones: Okay. I see why you opposed his rehabilitation.

Diombana: Now there's the RDGT, the old supporters of Keita who back Haidara (in the 1992 presidential election). The moderates who once backed Konaté are supporting his son (Tieoule Mamadou Konaté). The candidate in second place is the son of Konaté. We supported the UDPM because Modibo did all of that (the previously mentioned atrocities).

When he wanted to get rid of the unions, we (cheminots) said no. We don't want to belong to a single national union. After we created our own national union, the Association Général des Travailleurs (AGT), Modibo suppressed it.

Jones: ...because they were afraid...

Diallo: (something about the ambassador to Ivory Coast. Unintelligible)

Diombana: Anyway, now we had problems with the Direction du Chemin de Fer. They tried to fire me. I was a union leader, so first they tried to transfer me from the railroad. They tried to send me to the SEMA (Société d'Équipments Maliens) because I was a mechanic. They said that if I didn't accept the transfer, I was fired. I said I wouldn't, so they took me to the Police Speciale. I said that I had 25 years of service at the railroad. They were in the process of installing the workshops at Korofina and I was involved. I was busy removing obstacles to the track right-of- way. There was work to be done and I knew that the railroad adinistration needed me. But they suspended me. They put police in front of my office to prevent me from entering.

Jones: What year was this?

Diombana: '67 ... ah, '63. '63. They suspended me. For five months, I was out of work. My children got sick, but the Director had given orders that they couldn't be treated at the clinic. Docteur infirmièr d'état M. Keita was obliged to go to the pharmacy himself and buy medicine with his own money in order to treat my children.

Jones: So he helped you despite the government's orders?

Diombana: He was a cheminot. He did it. After two months, Modiba Keita summoned me. I met him at Koulouba and he asked me why I refused to go to SEMA. I said that it was an arbitrary order dictated by my political opposition, so I couldn't follow it. If I agreed to go to SEMA, he'd send me to Gao.

Jones: Right. You'd wind up at a customs post near Tessalit...

Diombana: He said he'd give me some time to think about it, but if I didn't go to SEMA, I'd be fired. I said he could make his decision right then and there, because I wouldn't go to SEMA. He sent me away and I went home.

One month later, he summoned me again. He told me that he'd decided not to send me to SEMA. I was happy. He paused for a moment, then added that I wouldn't be at the Chemin de Fer either. He said that I had to learn not to challenge authority ("ne pas tirer à la pouvoir"). I asked what post he had in mind and he said I'd be part of the Mission Malien à Thiès (liasion group for the railroad)

Jones: Did that please you?

Diombana: I had my house at Thiès, but my family was in Kayes. I was more interested in staying here than going to Senegal. But given the fact that I was unemployed and living in a strange place, I accepted. He asked if I accepted without bad feelings ("rencul") and I said no. I accepted, but with "rencul." He asked why. I said that I understood that the leaders of my country didn't like me, and I didn't like them.

Jones: Back to prison?

Diombana: He told me that I couldn't speak that way to a chef d'état. He added that the chef d'état was only a man, and that a man could make a mistake. People could give him bad information. That's what had happened. I (Keita) was misinformed about your case and now we know the truth. That's why I didn't want to fire you. If you accept the appointment in Thiès, I'll make sure you get good conditions.

He arranged for me to leave for Thiès on the 29th of November. On the 19th, I was to meet the Minister in Bamako and prepare my departure. Unfortunately, the 19th of November, we had a coup d'état. (Note: This occurred in 1968, so it contradicts the year he gave in the interview). He told me to go to the Mairie (city hall) and look for the Minister and I'd get all of the papers necessary to go to Kayes (Thiès?). But unfortunately, on the 19th of November when I got to the Mairie, we'd already had the coup d'état. After the military government took over, they returned me to my job at the railroad.

Jones: You won, but what a way to win!

Diombana: Exactly. When I returned, the cheminots elected me secretary general of the union. I stayed there, and after my retirement, the cheminots elected me secretary general of the Association des cheminots Retraités.

Jones: What year did you retire?

Diombana: 1978.

Diallo: 1978, the same year as me. We retired together.

Jones: Therefore, the history of railroad unionism in Mali involves a lot of courage and patience (laughter).

Diallo: There were two categories of cheminots. One group came from Senegal; we were called "les refoulés." They were better qualified and came back to Mali expecting to take over the existing jobs. The non- refoulés thought that the refoulés considered themselves better than the rest (... this is difficult to translate intelligently, but Diombana describes competition between the two groups and says that the Malian cheminots thought the refoulés were going to take over their jobs.) Me, I finished up in Senegal as part of the Mission Malien au Thiès de Chemin de Fer after 1965. We did the work there in Thiès that we couldn't do here. After we finished down there, we kept a group to maintain relations ("des relations techniques") between the RCM and the RCFS. We handled the arrival of rolling stock from Europe.

Jones: Is it reasonable to say that the union had so much trouble with the government because the union cut across various power hierarchies by uniting people from various villages, groups, etc?

Diombana: No. The union didn't alter the life in the village.

Diombana: There were twelve national unions here - the cheminots are the 13th. Until (unintelligible) congress, we were asked to disband and join the National Union. (Diombana and Diallo showed some confusion about the actual year this happened.) "C'etait le temp de Moussa Traoré; c'etait 1969 parce que mon rapport etait preparé en 1969" (It was during the period when moussa Traoré was in power. It was in 1969 because that is the year I wrote my report.)

At the time, there were 12 unions. We said that we would not remain in the "Syndicat des Transports." They replied that all unions of transporters had to belong to the national union. We replied that we didn't want unity for the sake of unity, especially an imposed unity.

I told them why we didn't want to stay in the national union. It was composed of certain services who had "aucun notion syndicat" (no sense of union solidarity). There was the Service de la Navigation at Koulikoro who worked only 4 months per year, so they weren't organized for group action. There was the CMTR, truck drivers who carried hydrocarbures (petroleum-based fuel). They had trucks that were gifts from Czechoslovakia ... Krupp...

Jones: Krupp was German. Tatra was the Czechoslovakian truck company. (NOTE: From other sources, I know that these trucks were given to Mali right after independence, but Krupp was out of business by 1969.)

Diombana: This society (CMTR) was so badly managed that I expected it to go out of business any day. There was Air Mali, composed of young technicians who had no sense of union behavior because they had plenty of advantages and didn't need to have a union, at least according to them.

As a result, union activity by the cheminots was retarded by the rest. That's why we wanted to break away. They understood what we wanted and tried to stop us. That's why they imposed the national union on us. When they did that, I offered my resignation. (He showed me a copy of his letter of resignation.)

Jones: (reading letter) ... 1973 (date of the letter). OK.

Diallo: I've got to leave. (Bote: Before he left, I got his vital statistics. Boubacar Diallo, retired 1978, born in Toukoto.)

(tape stops for interruption, then resumes)

Diombana: (Responding to a general question about the impact of the railroad on the Middle Niger Valley.) Before the penetration of the railroad into the zone Bamako-Kayes, people were employed in agriculture and herding. After the railroad, we began to live in a modern way; that is, the organization of life and the organization of the population. In addition, there was interpenetration of the population between the two zones - Senegal and Soudan. When the railroad reached Koulikoro ...

Jones: ... December 1904 ...

Diombana: December 1904. I think it was Blum who planned to build a dorsal line, the Transafricaine, to connect the colonies and eventually Algeria. We believed up until independence that this would be built - a line crossing the Niger at Koulikoro to Segou, Mopti, Tombouctou, Bobo and the Ivory Coast. For the cheminots, it was our dream. It would have allowed our country to develop. But we realize that this won't happen.

Diombana: Presently, as far as development is concerned, we are regressing.

Jones: Ever since independence?

Diombana: Right. In addition, Europe has contributed to our regression. We are subject to interest rates that are deplorable, excessive, from the IMF and the World Bank. Now we figure our task is to organize ourselves to have new factories and better infrastructure, and to extend the railroad beyond Koulikoro, but in fact, even the maintainance on the former Chemin de Fer Dakar-Niger has become problematic.

The conditions of life and work, as you already know, are deplorable. Under such conditions, you can't work. Despite everything we've already done, we are obliged to accept these impossible conditiuons.

Jones: So to talk about extending the railroad ...

Diombana: Ah, that's bad enough, but first we want our administrators to improve the conditions of credit to Africa. The way things are now, there is no hope.

Jones: (Trying to get back to my original, general question) Thus, for people in the east and north of Mali, if they were affected by the railroad, it was because of imported goods or because they grow peanuts or cotton for export?

Diombana: Peanuts and cotton for example - that's around Mopti, Segou, Sikasso, but above Mopti, it was other things. Up there, we might be able to count on minerals (for export) but we have to give people a reason to live there. In that desert, it's difficult.

Jones: That's true. Have you been as far as Tombouctou?

Diombana: I've been to Tombouctou, to Gao, to Ansongo ...

Jones: Ok, you know the area.

Diombana: I've been as far as the waterfall at Labbezanga (the border between Mali and Niger)

Jones: Ah, OK. Here's the last part of the question (about the railroad's impact on the Middle Niger Valley). Are there people from Mopti, from Sikasso, who worked for the railroad and became cheminots?

Diombana: There's a funny saying from the 1930s. The people of Kayes, at the birth of a child, wish that it will grow up to be the "chef de gare."

Jones: Because the cheminot is king?

Diombana: Because the cheminot was the only job in the region. There was a bit of commerce, the dispensary, a few small government offices (services), but the most important "service" was the railroad.

Presently, you find people from Mopti and even Gao who work as cheminots. Some graduated from the Lycée de Terrasson. Others stayed for a long time in Bamako or other centers.